Ty Cobb Backer 0:00

Alrighty, episode 325. Most roofing companies are about to get left behind and don't even know it. We have a kind of a booming system that either we're gonna push you up or gonna push you out. I don't want to be around five other people that aren't pushing themselves to succeed. That isn't about taking, but giving value first.

Speaker 2 0:21

Compensation follows contribution always. This is true authenticity. It's the truth. Every use just is our story. We share with you our journey. We share with you our scars. Please welcome your host, Ty Cobb Backer.

Ty Cobb Backer 0:34

Hey, hey, hey, welcome back, everybody, to Behind the Tool Belt, the podcast, where we don't just talk about the trades, we talk about the people who are actually building them. And I am your host, Ty Cobb Backer. And this is episode 325, unbelievably. And uh today's episode, I think, might challenge a couple people about the way they think about their business. We got Mr. Tim Brown, founder of Hook Agency, and one, if not the best, digital marketing companies working with us tradesmen. And Tim didn't just stay on the sidelines. Tim, Tim, he he went all in and launched his own roofing company here. And uh, we want to talk to him a little bit about that and what the what what tricks and trades and all those good things that that he's doing uh to help promote his his newfound business and and find out why in the hell he would do something so crazy like that because we all know the roofing industry isn't good or easy, I should say. It is good, it's very good. I love I love the freaking industry. Um, but it's not easy. It's giving me everything I got today. But welcome, welcome back to beyond a 2.

Tim Brown 1:43

Thank you, sir. It's always a pleasure. I always learn from you as much as uh as much as I get to share too. So thank you for having me on.

Ty Cobb Backer 1:51

Absolutely, absolutely, man. And and uh I I've learned so much from you. I think where we've really connected, we've known each other for a couple years now, and we've talked about this before in the past, and we we connected. I felt like we really connected on on the Xhale retreat with Erico. And uh I found it very interesting the the questions that you were asking me because you were you you knew what questions you wanted to ask, and and they were very, very, very good questions. And uh I actually watched you apply most of them um into your business and stuff. And a lot of times I'll have people ask me questions and I never see them apply it, you know, the way that you did. I mean, you were taking notes and and you were very intuitive on on uh making sure you fully understood what it was that I was trying to explain to you how we did certain things. And of course, you know as well as I do, I'm I'm an open book, anything anybody wants to know at any time. I've had local contractors reach out to me and ask me how we do things, and I I'm I'm okay with it. I I feel like when you know tides rise, all ships rise at high tide kind of thing. And and uh, but but anyhow, I um I know that you nerd out on marketing and brand and and AI and stuff like that. So I think why why I got you captive today for at least the next 30, 40 minutes here, um, I want to I want to dive right into to to AI because it's here, right? It's it's not coming, it's it's here. And and I want to hear from you like from where you sit on the side that you know where you sit is um where do you yeah, where do you see like the biggest shift happening um in in our space in the roofing space?

Tim Brown 3:38

It's a wild, bro. Like what's happening right now. I think I think we're all just kind of like a little scared and preparing the last few years. I think like digital marketing obviously is hit almost like in a way, and or we can go faster. There's two there's two feelings, right? There's like we can go so much faster with this work. Maybe we were doing two times the amount of work with with chat GPT and the basic stuff, and now you've got things like clawed co-work and open claw, where it's essentially like clicking around on the computer for you doing something, and I think like the the beauty of that, the there's a there's a lot of fear around that, too. Like with any anybody who's clicking around on a computer for a job, there's some fear, as I think you should definitely have, and then on the positive side, it's like if you're strategic and you have other skills besides just clicking on a computer, you're like good at business numbers, like the overarching ideas, how to wield these tools to go faster. Maybe you can get 10 times done, not just two times, because man, it is wild. What I mean, just somebody like if you're a CEO out there, use Claude co-work for a day. Like it's the ability for it to do work for you on your behalf is kind of an enormous. Now, you still need to know where to you know hammer the nail. You know, you need to know where to hit, but I mean, it's doing work for me right now off to the side, you know, over here, like at this exact moment, you know. So, and there's things there's so many jobs, right? You think about like um supplementing, you think about like anything that was like estimated, like things that are like a little simpler, you could kind of train it to do things happening, and it's a little uncomfortable. I think um in my other business with hook agency, which I still have, by the way, and some people ask me that. Yes, I love this business, it's good, it's growing, it's um getting better every day. It's getting more done with less people, and that is scary for jobs and things like that. That is a real thing, and then in a newer business, I think I think it's harder to reinvent yourself when you've had a business for a long time. But as a as a newer business, what I'm saying is like to my team here at Owl, it's like five or six of us right now, I'm saying we want to be AI first, meaning, what does that mean? It means let's try it with AI before we hire somebody for that. Do you know what I'm saying? So if it's a coworking thing, and then in addition to you know, let's say we try supplementing with with AI or whatever, in addition to that, there's also tools out there, you know what I mean? So somebody's already nailed this too, you know. Like I'm I'm talking to my boy uh Max Rosenbloom over at uh supplement experts, he's got adjust at AI or whatever that he's launching in the next three weeks, and he's kind of like trained it on all of the supplements that he's ever done for all these different companies, and he's essentially training it to do it for you, so it's gonna be cheaper than if he had all the people do it, but he's spent six to nine months doing that, and just so you know, this isn't a commercial on that, it's like also hey, maybe there's a chance that all these softwares go away realistically, dude. Software, this is another thing, and I'll just I'll kind of like wrap up this portion with this is like software, you can build it so much faster now with claw code and these things too. So they call it junk software right now, just like they called that AI slop for content, but then at a certain point, when does it no longer AI slop? And when is it better than the human did it? And it's like I think the only thing because it's all ugly in a way, and I don't know if I love AI, I like sometimes hate it, but at the same time, as a business owner, it kind of has to be like, I'm just not closing my mind entirely because the last iteration one year ago is not what it is now, and so it's like kind of keep your it's like strong opinions lightly held. Yeah, I don't think you should be publishing just no human edit content at this exact moment, but I'm not gonna say no never because that's very quickly happening, where maybe we even get more iterations in on the content with the help of AI. Maybe it's doing more research than our people were doing, you know, like so it's kind of like keep your mind open, and then it's also being fearless a little bit, like because it does suck to say some of the stuff out loud when you know there's like an employee listening that's doing that job currently, and it's like like it hurts to say, but it's like ultimately as a CEO, you kind of got to be competitive, and if other people are decreasing their costs significantly with this stuff, it's tough. We have and I would last last sentence if I was to encourage employees, it would be to get really strategic and try using these tools so they can go faster and be the one that doesn't get replaced because they know how to wield the tools.

Ty Cobb Backer 9:19

Good input. That's gold right there. That that is gold, and thank you for sharing that. And hopefully, anybody out there listening, not just the owners, but but in you know, team members and employees, that's that's definitely a good one. Where where would you say uh AI is going to hit roofing companies the hardest? Like, where are people going to feel it first?

Tim Brown 9:43

I hope you feel it in your bottom line in a positive way. I like to think of it as like we're growing and we can grow the headcount a little slower with the help of this. Like, we we can get more done with less people. So hopefully it hits you in a positive way. Um, software bloat is a thing, like like I think about like because you know, like we were we're super in the industry and people are like throwing stuff at us, so they're like, use this software, use that, like we'll give it to you for free. Just tell people in the like, yeah, but I can't use any more softwares. We've got our seven or whatever, and like I don't want to make my team try to use any more than we are currently using. So you got a CRM, you got maybe you got company cam, maybe you got like some other really good ones like project map it or you know what Ruffle or whatever, right? At a certain point, you gotta stop layering on new software. So there's also that. Um, I'm I'm conscious of that, but it's like for yourself as a CEO or somebody like I don't know. I think that people should I don't I kind of think of like the AI tools like Claude, and Claude, I think, is the best one at the moment, but it's like Claude as and maybe even like yeah, chat GPT and Gemini as like those are kind of separate from software, it's kind of like there's they're super cheap too. So it's like um, I think people should be experimenting with them. I remember Gary V saying like 10,000 hours. A CEO should at least spend 10,000 hours experimenting, or maybe he said a thousand, but it was uh you know, like over the last five years or something, I probably spent that amount with AI, and and it's like you gotta get better and better with it. I mean, I you know, I'm not the only one preaching this, and I'm like, I'm also uncomfortable, and I have to get more comfortable with how fast things are changing. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So I don't I don't think it's gonna negatively impact roofing companies, I think it might negatively impact software companies and marketing companies, and then when the bots, the actual robots come, then roof roofing might change, but I think that's always away.

Ty Cobb Backer 11:58

Yeah, no, I I I agree with you. I think I think it's gonna I think those that are using it, it's gonna it's going to impact them um positively, and those that aren't using it, I think it's gonna impact them negatively.

Tim Brown 12:11

Yes, yes. If you're not, yeah, because it's it's competitive, like it you could go faster, quicker. I'm I'm feeling like I can go faster, quicker on a bunch of stuff because I'm going hard on AI. And I do think people in my area who are not using these tools are gonna go much slower. And I would recommend anyone that I'm talking to to like be like, all right, go go look at these. Like, try it's basically like capabilities testing for a CEO, yeah, or anyone really, like capability, like what is it capable of and not capable of? And then, like, people that haven't tried it are like, could it do this? And you're like, Well, no, it doesn't, it's not magic. It's just like start to get on like try some stuff with it so that in a month or two when you have a good idea for what it could do, like then you know, you know, you know what it's capable of, and you're not like it's not magical thinking, you know.

Ty Cobb Backer 13:08

Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. So so break break it down real simple. If I'm a contractor and I'm overwhelmed, I'm one of those guys that that wasn't like an early adopter.

Tim Brown 13:20

Sure.

[Ad] The Fresh Patch Podcast - Where Good Pets Get It.

Ty Cobb Backer 13:21

What what what are like the the first two or three things I should start doing with with AI immediately?

Tim Brown 13:52

Um so I I've been, I guess Claude Cowork is so new to me, it'd be hard to like make recommendations there. I literally this week got really into it, and I like it's the first time in a second that I've been had my mind blown by AI. You know, like the first few times you use Chat GPT, you're like, oh my gosh, what is this? Like, that's how the how I started to feel because essentially it was doing work for me. Um, I don't know. The first I I I'll just say where I'm like imagining we might we might use it for, you know, um estimating and and supplementing. We might use it for um organizing projects or busy work, like I'm imagining potentially financial. It sounds crazy because you're like letting a computer do it, but like you think about QuickBooks stuff, you know what I mean? The ability to have it work on and pull reports. Um, I don't think that like pulling reports and insights is like really the I feel like that's like been the first layer of AI was a little bit more like we're looking at it for insights, and then we do all the work, and then it's like I'm more tired than I was before AI. I feel like where it's going now is like it's gonna actually take work off people's plates because like it's it's basically like cloud cowork is basically like AI using AI for you versus like you know, you're sitting around clicking on AI. I did more work sitting over there in AI than I did, you know. So I think that this is like that next generation where it's kind of like doing tests, and you can schedule recurring tests really easily in it and then have it set. It's probably the first layer feels a little bit like the first time you you'll use it, it'll like feel like a kind of a VA. You have to give it access to stuff, you have to give it like logins, you know what I'm saying? Like if you've ever had a VA in another country or something like that, like it's similar to that, but like potentially, you know, like even my VA and I love hey, what's up? Appreciate you, Blanca. Yeah, uh, she's awesome, but she like I have to encourage her to use the AI tools, you know what I mean? I'm like, all right, so go use this tool. They should like we've made custom GPTs in the past to like ask questions to that instead of to me, and then um, this thing is just an AI native kind of running around and doing busy work for, but anything. This is the truth, it's like just talked to my trainer about it this morning, and he was one of those people that's like, could it do this and make up the workout for me? I'm like, no, it's not creative in that way, it's not gonna like know your client in that way, but anything that you can turn into a reproducible process on a computer, and sometimes it's a magic, it's a matter of our imagination. So, in my experience previously, I was using um one of those screen recorder apps, Loom, yeah, to to do my processes, right? I'm showing I'm doing everything that I would normally do to click around on the screen, go to this website, go to that website, do this. In digital marketing, it's a little bit more obvious. Like you're finding an image here, you're doing this, you're doing a little graphic design, etc., whatever. And anything that you can kind of do in a loom on a computer and it's turned into a process, you it's it's that's the type of stuff that maybe this will do for you now. If you've had a hard time, I mean that's the first layer, right? Ty is like learning how to turn things into processes that are reproducible by a human, and sometimes, no offense, but by a lower level, lower paid human, like you know what I mean, like where they could reproduce it and it will be 80% as good as you. And learning how to do that is the first layer, and then essentially this is just like all right, now I can just take those and have this do that type of stuff. Um, so I'd say, like, basically, like the first layer is people are gonna feel like it's kind of like a VA that's just doing re reproducible computer tasks for you, but the long-term effect, and I'm gonna say a crazy, like I think this is real. I think anything that's like on a computer job, based on what I've seen in the next 10 years, I think that's going, I think that's going low, bro. Like, I think like there's gonna be 20% of those jobs left, are gonna be replaced, yeah. It's just scary for the economy if you think about it. Like, and I don't I don't it's hard because you're like also like weighing, is this good? Is this good? Like, I I believe that right now. I'm not saying everyone I want everyone else to believe that. I think it's probably good if we all pretend like they're gonna be around for a little while for a second, but like what does that mean? Like, if if only 20% of the desktop jobs like compete because there's a lot of those jobs, it has implications, it does have implications, but in the meantime, it's like get strategic with the tools and be a person that's capable of utilizing those tools so you're 10 times more productive instead of waiting for it to clobber you, you know.

Ty Cobb Backer 19:17

Yeah, for sure, for sure. You know, I was thinking about this the other day, you know, um, it's like the dot-com boom, or you know, we we used to advertise in the uh yellow book, and this was this was pre, you know, websites and and and things like that where you could go online and search roofer near me. So we we would advertise most of it was just like hard copy stuff, like you know, billboards, truck wraps, yard signs, door hangers, word of mouth. Um, yellow book is where you went to search a roofer near me. And we've been in business long enough to see that transition. Okay, where I remember the lady from Yellow Book came and approached me about creating a domain. And I was like, What's a domain? Like, what what is I we don't we don't know what this is, and uh so we we created our first website, and back then you had to pave pave, I can't quite remember, but we we couldn't um literally use roofing in our name because every time somebody clicked or searched roofing, like it would charge us like twelve dollars. It was something ridiculous. Like roofing was like 12 bucks, siding was like eight, windows was like six, and gutters was um the least expensive uh keyword that we had to choose that we that we got to choose from. So our website domain was 321 gutter done. And um, because I wanted just straight up gutter done, but somebody out in California had already had that domain, and uh so we'll so um we did that, and a lot of people don't even know realize that because a lot of people are like, why don't you have roofing in your name? And it's like, well, um I couldn't afford it, I couldn't afford it back then, so things are way different now. But anyhow, if I wouldn't have been an early adopter of that, and this is this is the same thing. If you're not gonna become an early adopter, and when you were talking about VAs, I think if you're not using AI or have a VA in some way, shape, or form, whether it's just a personal assistant or checking pricing on invoices or whatever, doing the crap work that most people don't want to do, whatever at any scale, um, I think you're gonna be left behind. VA and and and AI. And when you were talking, the one thing that I didn't hear you bring up when you were talking about AI and and when it comes to marketing, um, how how or are you using AI to create brand awareness in any way, shape, or form? Do you understand what I mean?

Tim Brown 21:54

What I'm saying, yeah, yeah. Um, right now, so I'm not I'm totally uh there's some new tools that I'm like so already with our agency, we're essentially using this is like pre claude co work. So I'm starting to like, but we are using things to like queue up the post, like essentially get the first draft done, and then we modify it, like so on and so forth. So you have writers that are doing a little Less because they're capable and like having like automations even to get the first drafts and then the humans layer on the special sauce touch, you know, with the little, but you can do a lot of um that type of thing. So if I can go faster with content, so I mean, obviously, my secret sauce has been content. It's who knows how long this is gonna be because, like, okay, video content and written content, right? Who know who knows how long this is gonna be? Because if the machine can make legitimate useful content, what I'm doing at this exact moment, which is like like I don't know, cutting edge for me, and like like is essentially like today, right now, as we speak, Cloud Co-work is making lists for me on our website, our owl roofing website. Of I'm letting it handle kind of like lower intent, lower intent, meaning less intent to purchase lists for restaurants, coffee, and other types of home services in our area. So it's literally all of our main cities, it's making those lists so that homeowners in that area will will like find our list and it's doing the research, it's curating images, and then it's actually like uploading it to WordPress.

Ty Cobb Backer 23:42

Wow, that's it.

Tim Brown 23:43

And it's like so, and I'm curious like how this plays out because I like obviously that will allow us to be more efficient and allow people to do some of this themselves more easily. But like at a certain point, you just gotta be the person learning because if that's gonna go faster than humans, then I mean, my my job at that point would just be to like, all right, we're we're able to get 10 times more done, but we still have the strategy for how to do things the right way, right? Um, I would say that's a low percentage of our current strategy right now, like doing the like random other lists. But in a way, if you can scale up content at like a 10 times, like if I can do 10 times more content, I might do more kind of higher funnel content. And like in part of me is like I'm thinking of these like referral partners, like if I'm because then we could also reach out and be like, hey, we made this list and we included you as a plumber on here. Would you consider like referring us as a roofer? You know. Um, so that's I mean, that the my first everything looks like a nail to a hammer, right? So I'm my first thing is like content. I'm thinking about how could I scale content up at like an enormous rate? Um, there is something there where it's like, okay, now I'm gonna need to do some extra layer stuff because there's kinks to work out with it. Um, and I'm not just saying that because it's my job. I like it's probably if I shoveled this out forever and I didn't like modify it with as a human, like um, it might get a little redundant or sloppy or whatever. Um, but yeah, I mean that's what that's my like as a as a hammer, that's my nail. So I'm just like excited, I'm excited, but also scared about that. I think it's just two feelings for and I think whatever your job is, you should be like, you should have two feelings fear and excitement, because a I can do 10 times more, and B, let me just stay involved. And how can I add value and how can I make this better than if it was just a machine? Because we're still in competition with each other. You know, if you think about like all the roofing companies in my area, if they all did this and I did this, we're still in competition. Who can make it a little better than the machine made it on its own? Who can use the machine better, right? Yeah. I mean, you do gutters, you know. I'm sure that there's guys that aren't as good with the gutter machine as you guys are. So, like, um there's always a a little bit of an element of like what kind of special touches can I make this, can I do with this tool to make it a little bit better than my competition who also has this tool? I think I always said that with ChatGPT, it's like we're all on steroids. It's like if content marketers are now all on steroids, it's like also this is just that next layer of the steroids, but we all have it, and everyone will be using it in the next six months.

Ty Cobb Backer 26:42

So, yeah, well, and like you said, you feel like you're working harder now using it, you know. And that's who who's willing to put in the work really at the end of the day, who's willing to to learn how to use it, especially as fast as it's moving right now. And I think those that stay out in front of it and kind of geek out and carve out enough time or hire people that that are familiar with it already, that are you know, it's their full-time job is to get better and better and better as it gets better.

Tim Brown 27:11

Yeah, you can I think one thing on the hiring side is you can hire somebody that has an adjacent skill set and be like, you're an AI guy now, yeah, or gal. Like you don't have because because if they say they have five years of you know automation AI experience with claw, you know, open claw, and like they wouldn't that'd be a lie because no one does, right? So it's like if you get somebody who's deeply interested in that and just say this is your full-time job, that might be a a worthwhile move right now. I mean, I so we just hired our third full-time AI focused employee with all this stuff, and we're starting to get like kind of dedicated computers for open claw and and things like that. I think that I think it's just you gotta like, I don't know. I just think it'd be smart. Honestly, I think it'd be smart for everybody. Yeah, this is a this is like what I'm doing. So I'm you know what? Never mind, I'm not gonna say everyone should do it. What I'm doing now is I'm getting a computer in both of my businesses that is dedicated to open claw, and I am experimenting personally vigorously with with cloud co-work, and I have three full-time employees that are focused on AI, and I as soon as I can, I'm not being an idiot about owl and overhead, but like I'll probably start to have somebody focused on that as soon as I can. I'm it's it's like six people, so no, I'm not gonna do that out the gate. But like as I pass 10, you know, I'm probably gonna be like looking at that and I'm trying to apply things, but otherwise it's me. If if you're under 10, it's you. You're the you're the AI expert, right?

Ty Cobb Backer 28:51

Yeah, no doubt. No, and we've we've used it and we've been using it for a while now from anywhere from blog post writing and and uh helping us turn out content quicker. You know, people out in the field and we're recording the job or you know, we're doing an interview with a homeowner or anything like that, like it's helping us clean up our content quicker, you know, where it takes much longer. So it's definitely sped up the process, plus it's also helped us alleviate hiring, you know, or outsourcing, you know, to somebody else or to a VA to clean up our stuff and it comes back and it's not right anyhow. So if if and when, if you can, like we're fortunate enough, you know, Vic, he nerds out on AI all day, every day, and he's he's gotten pretty good with it. It's helped him immensely churn out even these reels that you'll see um after after our live here, like within minutes, he'll have he'll have content posted. Um, and we we you know, a year ago, even a year ago, it wasn't as good and plus as seasoned as he is now, and knowing how to prompt it and and do everything that he knows how to do with it to to make it faster. And it's learning him too, you know, at the same time as he's growing, it's growing, and they're learning together and stuff like that. But it's it's good. So um, but I I I think if you if you're not doing that and at least have a VA, um, I think you're gonna I think you're gonna fall behind. But but you know, you you've been inside a lot of roofing companies, yeah. And and the honest truth, what why why why do some scale and and others stay stock from your opinion? On the on the market.

[Ad] Make your podcast work for your business - Listen to Podcasting Amplified

(Cont.) How AI Is Rewriting Roofing Marketing And Operations

Tim Brown 30:34

I love that question. I love that question. I think that we all have that's all most people that start a business have like this um industrial strengths kind of like drive more more than your usual person, otherwise it's like kind of a wild idea to just be like, all right, let's start a new enterprise. You know, like we're all like usually pretty driven, and I think what I see a lot is people go, that's pretty good. I got to three million, I got to five million, that's pretty good. Some of some people go, I got to a million, dude, and I like that feeds my family, and I got a couple people helping, but it's like we're good, you know what I mean? It's fine. I think it's just at what level you think it's fine, and some of us are so sick, Ty, you and me, where we just keep on going. We go, it's never enough, and I'm fully so I think it's just kind of a little bit of like just to be silly today, I think it's a little bit of a sickness, you know, um, that we're just never satisfied. But I I think that it's like part of it is is it you're playing a game. I think that the people that I study the people that are winning and stay winning, and I think that they're it's because they've made it into a game in their head. Once they have enough money personally, they they think they're looking at the scoreboard, you know, they're looking at like, how could I drive this up? How could I? I'm I'm competing with myself. I'm like, I don't need more money, but I I I have something in me that I want significance and I'm interested in winning. And there's it's a little bit of pride, but it's also a little like I do think it some of it's sick, actually. I think some of it's sick, is what I really think. But I it's fun, you know what I mean? It's fun, sick. I mean, like there's an element of me that's like I don't, I don't think I'm gonna get to a spot in my entrepreneurial career where I'm like, yeah, I made it. I'll I it is fun if somebody thinks you made it, like every once in a while, somebody's like, oh wow, you did pretty good. I like that's fun, but it's not how I really feel. I mean, if I'm honest, I do think that is, you know, uh something I need to work on. Um, the people that don't, yeah, I think that they just get satisfied. I think people get satisfied and they don't they don't keep going with that industrial strengths ambition. They say, that's good. I'm pretty cool, and I'm good. And I think that like on the positive side, the way I've flipped that is like, yes, but how many people can you help? You know what I mean? On the positive side, it's like, A, how many, you know, they still have to earn their keep and make do great work for the customer, etc., etc. But how many people's families can I feed? And then also like, how many people's roofs can I put on, or how many people, you know, how many people's businesses can I help gain a million or two, you know, like for the in the case of my agency. So it's like I think they turn it into a game, the people that win turn it into a game, and the people that don't like kind of get satisfied and don't think of I think that there is a little bit of like how many people can you help is what partly drives those other people. And if they really want to grow and they can't, you know what I'm saying? Like they got stuck stuck, like they want to grow technically, but they got stuck stuck. I think it's a matter of energy and people, right? Like, you didn't get the right people, obviously. Alex Hermozzi says, You think you worked harder than you did. You know, and it's some people go, like, no, I I'm tired. I worked 80 hour weeks. It's like, well, sometimes it's not you work an extra 20 hours, sometimes you go back to the drawing board, you rest, maybe you learn to meditate or something, right? And you go, Who do I need? And how do I become the type of person that attracts that person in our in our business? Like, because obviously I haven't attracted the right people, and obviously I haven't worked hard enough, and that like that hurts the first time you hear it, but I mean, that's it's helpful, it's an actual useful idea because if I haven't worked hard enough and I haven't attracted the type of people, then I'm stuck for a while, and I I have to like go back and get better. I think it's partly dude's last sentence on this is we cut ourselves. I'll say it in first person so it's not mean. We cut ourselves off from the necessary feedback that will actually make our business better because it hurts to hear.

Ty Cobb Backer 36:20

Yeah, and that the truth. No, and I think everything that you had mentioned is is is accurate, you know, and it falls back on them. It's them, it's why they get stuck, and they want to blame it on you know, economics, they want to blame it on um other people and things like that. It's like, and and I think a lot of times we get as business owners, and I've I've struggled with this where I get I get comfortable and I get complacent and and growth stops. Um, but I I always I always remember back. So when I first got in business, it was always about me and me trying to make ends meet for me, me, me, me. And about four years into it, it took me four years um to realize that this was way bigger than me. This is about the people that that we had brought into the company and how we need to focus on them and make sure that they are taken care of. And when that mind shift happened, and that's where we we put everybody from 1099 to W 2. And I thought that was pretty special because it might not sound like a big deal, but they had unemployment if anything went wrong, and if anybody got hurt, you know, we had uh workers' compensation, which planted a seed for me. Like, how cool would it be if we could offer health insurance here? So, right away, like I said, my mind shifted over to okay, this is much bigger than me, it's about them. So we we worked hard and we offered um health insurance like a year or two later, and then retirement, so on and so forth. And um, and you mentioned it, it's like now it's about how many lives can I impact, you know, and that's what I really get thrilled about is like not just even now, everybody thinks that same way here, right? Like I'm working, I'm really good at my job. So this person next to me continues to keep having a job. My my sales are so great that our production team gets to work every single day. Um, our finance department gets to stay busy because of the amount of leads that are coming in. It's like that that trickle effect where like the phone rings, sales runs the call, sales lands the job, production goes out and does the the work, and then all administrative help continue to keep having a job. And when you can kind of paint that picture for everybody, like, look, this is this is way bigger than just you coming here and and gaining a paycheck. Yes, that's your tip at the end of the week for doing such a great job and helping out all of your coworkers and making sure that um they're staying fed. Um, but when you can keep it, you know, when it's about other people, and unfortunately, that's what leadership's about. And everybody thinks leadership's about a title, but it's not. Leadership means that you eat last, leadership means that it's about everybody else and not you, and that's a tough pill to swallow because I think some people use that as like, okay, a crutch for being a martyr. Okay, well, I wouldn't be so fat if you wouldn't eat or you know, what if if you didn't stress me out all the time. I'm sitting over here trying to take care of you all the time, and it's like I'm not taking care of myself. And I fell into that. It's kind of like, yeah, my health is failing right now because I'm too I'm so worried about the business, and I'm which means I'm worried about everybody else under here. But the bottom line is if you can surround yourself around enough good people that will at least meet you halfway, okay, that you know that that that if you're doing what you're expecting them to do yourself, okay, that's the biggest thing. First one here, last one to leave. Nobody in the in the beginning wants to do that. I think a lot of people that get into business think they get they're buying back their time. No, that is the furthest from the truth because before in most businesses, before you even turn your first dollar and start seeing profit, it takes five years. Overnight success happens in 10 years, one decade, especially in the roofing industry, where you can honestly say, and I'm not saying that there isn't these pop-up companies that hit a good hail storm and and do eight million dollars in their first year. However, you won't see them here in the next eight, four years because 80% of us go out of business in the first four years in any business. 90% of us go out of business in the first 10 years, in any business. Um, I think people lose the drive, I think they lose the vision. Um, I think they become very content and complacent and they forget where they came from, and which means they forget about their people, they forget that their people are their biggest asset. Those are the people that you're gonna need to take care of the most are your people who show up every day, who actually try to beat you to the office every morning and try to stay later than you. And a lot of people listen to this like, well, I did, you know, this work life balance. Oh, I gotta work, you know, I can only work 40 hours or my brain overheats, and all it's like, dude, then don't don't don't think you're gonna start a business if you're only gonna work 40 hours a week because it never shuts off still today. And you had mentioned we have multiple businesses, it never shuts off. But I've this is my lifestyle, this is who I am today. You know, I I I work, I do um a lot of things all the time, and it never shuts off. Now, could I leave today and go golf? Absolutely, I can do that. I better be able to do that. I better be, after 18 years of being in business, be able to leave whenever I feel like I have to leave or spend time with my family. Um, but I forgot where I really wanted to touch on something in in you know what why people get stuck. They get stuck because they they don't know how to delegate, they don't know how to culture. Okay, they don't trust people, they're control freaks, they think nobody else can do it as good as them. Um I did that, I've been there, and and the minute started to let go of things, we started to grow immediately. And then I found out that everybody was really good at everything that I used to do, and that my job, though, and I did 15 different jobs, which I thought were just tasks, actually just created 12 different full-time jobs, and that's when we exploded. When I started to take other, I started to delegate and I started to listen to my team. I started to listen to my people and take their input because let's face it, they're on the front lines, they're on it every day. I'm not anymore, so I have to take their feedback, I have to listen. If they need something or something's going wrong, I I have to take that into consideration. And I love when people bring me ideas, um, because we may go fully with that idea, or it may kick in like my creative, like, oh yeah, let's do it, but let's do it this way. Um, or you know, where at least I'm meeting them halfway because that's kind of the the the culture that that we've created where it's like, you know, my door it's it's closed most of the time because I'm on the phone and I don't want to be real loud out in hallways, but my door is always open, metaphorically. Everybody knows that my door is always open, and they don't need to just come to me when it's a huge problem. Um, and they're not, I don't think they're afraid to to come knock on my door. There might be somebody that that that might be, but um, but I I think that's what it is. You got to learn how to delegate and you gotta learn how to surround yourself around smarter people in certain areas that you're not so smart in, and that will keep you growing for a long time. And then once you get to know them and their families, and then it becomes your responsibility that we got to keep this thing afloat because they are now my responsibility. And then all of a sudden, because I'm creating so much value in people's lives, I get paid. Somehow the money comes, somehow the money always shows up when I put my people first.

Tim Brown 43:48

Yeah, and I'll note that leading people, because you want great people, right? And leading people also sometimes, in my experience, this is a failure, but like has has drawn out bad qualities in me as a leader. So I think also in addition to getting those people and how do I keep them, right? Uh, is not freaking out on them and learning how to calm down. So that's been a big part of my journey is learning how to calm down because I'm intense, I'm driven, and you could say that I could do some pretty cool things with that. But if I scare off my some of my best people by being a dick, so like for me, that's been like absolutely critical is to try to figure out how to basically how to be a little bit better of a person, but also like to be gentler with myself, I would say it's how to take care of myself enough so that I don't freak out. Because that's like part, it's like my inner child lashing out. Cause it's man, I worked really hard and where where, like, who what are you doing? And like, you know, like there's some of that that comes up in my brain, and it's like that's usually when I'm like. a little sore. Like I'm not taking care of myself. I'm kind of I'm I'm doing that to myself. You know what I mean? So there's there is an element of rest with all this that's it's hard to work in, dude. And I'm not saying I'm the best at I yeah I work a little a little more than 40 hours usually but like how do I take a how do I take a rest when I like because I'm not good at it. I I'm guessing a lot of entrepreneurs can out there can relate like when I'm resting I'm usually thinking too much.

Ty Cobb Backer 45:26

That's why I give thoughts yeah and I do that. So I don't mind taking taking a taking a breather and stepping away from it. Yeah you know and spending quality time with friends or family or going out to eat or or mowing lawn or hitting a couple golf whatever whatever. Active rest. That's how I rest I don't you know I build shit. And uh that but that's where I get my my best visions and and my most clarity when I can step out of the building for a minute. Doesn't mean I have to shut it off necessarily I just have to remove myself from the atmosphere um but also be present if I'm if I'm with my family I need to be present but like I said that's where if I can just shut this off for a minute some of those some of our best ideas um come come from you know being able to step away but uh let's I got I got a couple more questions for you here um and uh and then we'll we'll wrap this up but what what right now is exciting you the most about where uh the industry is going hmm it's an interesting question like so in our market like some some roofers fell out okay you know um there's there's like a lot of storm work for a while and then a couple years drought um so it kind of like trimmed cooled the herd it's kind of a mean way to think about it but like it really did and it kind of there's opportunity in that too like when it's gold rush time like there's some like stuff that pops up that's less than ideal there's a lot of cockiness there's a lot of like pride and there's a little bit of like there's stuff going on with that that sometimes it is an issue um what I would say is when there's lower times there's opportunity it's buy low sell sell high it's finding times where there's like there's and if let's say that there's less work because insurance tightened up in certain ways like though that side of it goes down there's also an opportunity for more professional companies that are really customer service driven and and good with financing and stuff.

Tim Brown 47:36

So there's more opportunity in those types of things and I'm not like one of those doomsday guys about insurance. I don't know that that's done. I just think it's tighter and you have to be you have to get better with retail right so I think there's opportunity in that for people that are very intentional with customer service and are very intentional with um their brand and like the way that the you know there's a little bit like sometimes more marketing involved with retail jobs because you kind of have to um you sell them a little bit more there's a little bit more wooing that might happen. They might be they might be more likely to go with you because you your brand is strong. That's why you guys are busy that's why there's so much you know you guys have a strong brand and you've gone very hard in that and you know the community and you're involved in the community I think that's cool. I think that that's like there's opportunity for roofers to push in in that way. I think that that's super positive. And I am extremely excited to go to market that in that way in like maybe just small way like TC Backer like to be super community involved. We were already like involved with the local charity and we're already like we just gave out 120 owls that like stuffed owls that are daycare which did generate one lead so far that I I'm excited to see how that inspection went um but I'm excited about the community oriented roofing companies that are coming up and growing right now in this new generation of more modern kind of um customer service driven and brand driven roofing companies that's how I feel yeah that's good great response great response man so much value in our conversation today and and you know here's here's the reality okay the the industry's changing and um it's changing fast.

Ty Cobb Backer 49:25

So I think that the the gap between um the companies that that adapt and the ones that don't is is about to get super wide. You know and and AI particularly isn't something to just sit on the sidelines and and watch. It's something to start using. And sharing you know your your real insights and and not just talking theory right but but actually being in the game now you know and and I look forward to to our conversations and um but I think this is probably a good place for us to to wrap up unless you yeah thank you for having me.

Tim Brown 50:09

I I mean like who knows how I'll do with this roofing company and if it'll go well or whatnot but I I am sharing the entire journey on my social so if people want to follow and I'm trying to share what happens I'm kind of expecting I mean so if I flop it's gonna be bad because I'm kind of expecting to be successful and I'm sharing everything I'm learning along the way including failures. Like I just did a jingle contest and it got zero entries so I'll share all that stuff um along the way and when it's hard and stuff like that but I just hope some some people get some value out of that and if I do flop entirely then at least it will be an interesting story I think I love it.

Ty Cobb Backer 50:52

I love it thank you for coming on and if anyone listening don't just listen to this act on it. Everything that Tim has mentioned you know and if you got value out of this episode share it with someone in the trades drop us a review drop us a like share share this out to all your friends and and we'll see you next week on uh episode uh 326 of behind the tool belt you guys have a great rest of your week thanks to our sponsors TC Backer Construction Hook Roofing Marketing Roofal and Project Map It and thank you for watching subscribe to our YouTube channel and follow us on Facebook.

Tim Brown 51:30

We are streaming on all major platforms. See you next week for another episode of Behind the tool belt