Ty Cobb Backer: 0:00

And we are live. Welcome back everybody to Behind the Toolbelt, episode 291. I am your host, ty Cobb Backer. Thank you for joining us on this Wednesday edition. We will be back after our short intro from our sponsors.

Speaker 2: 0:31

Welcome to Behind the Tool Belt, where the stories are bold, the conversations are real and the insights come to you live, raw and uncut. Every week, host Ty Cobb-Backer sits down to bring you the stories, the struggles, the lessons learned and the wins. No filters, no scripts, just the truth. Please welcome your host of Behind the Tool Belt, ty Cobb-Backer.

Ty Cobb Backer: 0:57

All right, let's go. Welcome back everybody to episode 291, Behind the Tool Belt. Today we are diving deep with somebody who's making serious waves in the roofing world, our guest, elijah. Mama. Did I say that? Right? You did, mom. Okay, good, I didn't want to sound like a complete idiot. So, hey, owner of romans roofing, a company built on great excellence and a mission-driven mindset.

Ty Cobb Backer: 1:24

But, but Elijah is not just swinging hammers you thought I was going to say something else, didn't you? Swinging hammers and building roofs. He's also behind a mic with I'm sorry, I just totally had a brain fart there because I was thinking about swinging something but as the host of the Roof Trolls podcast, where he dishes out raw, unfiltered insight on the state of the trades Trolls podcast, where he dishes out raw, unfiltered insight on the state of the trades, the roofing industry and everything in between, today we're going to talk about entrepreneurship, building a brand that actually means something, calling out the BS in the industry, and how Elijah is bringing leadership and authenticity back to the roofing game. Let's dig into this man, elijah, how you doing, buddy?

elijah Muhm: 2:03

Doing great man, super great. I'm actually a fanboy of this podcast as well, so I'm very excited to be a part of it.

Ty Cobb Backer: 2:10

Man, thank you so much for coming on, man, and being so enthusiastic about coming on, and thank you, you're doing good stuff over there too, being a fellow podcaster, we, you know, we had a little brief conversation before we turned the camera on here and you know talking about how you know it can become, you know, a full time job, along with, you know, being a parent and a full are actually behind the microphone, running and operating a roofing business, a sales team and and trying to be a good parent. Man, it's, it's a lot, it really is a lot yeah, a hundred percent.

elijah Muhm: 2:57

Uh, so the podcast is like a full-time thing too, so there's a lot of people that will jump in and start one, and then that's why so many of them fizzle out, because I don't think that people understand the amount of hours that go into that. So you got to, you got to find gas. You got to, you got to vet them to make sure that they would be of quality, and then putting out something that that's sustainable, that you can continue to talk about that people are interested in, while grasping their attention, all while still being a father, still running a roofing company, still being involved in sales of that roofing company and managing all those employees. So, yeah, it's a full-time gig, for sure.

Ty Cobb Backer: 3:29

No doubt, dude, I got mad respect for you man. I totally get it. I totally, totally, totally get it. So why don't we talk about start out with the growth and operations of Romans, roofing what you know what, what, what separates, or let's, let's, let's get? I guess let's get to the beginning. How did Romans come about?

elijah Muhm: 3:51

So the original idea of Romans was created, actually by a local attorney by the name of Jeff Semko, right over there in Cherville, indiana, and Jeff started Romans Roofing named it after his son. They had a really good mom and pop feel to it. It was just a small, local roofing company and they were mostly geared toward retail work as opposed to storm restoration work. And a buddy of mine actually childhood friend of mine, angelo Sia me and him worked prior for a couple of companies. We went to a corporate company and at that corporate company some changes were made that didn't align with what our beliefs were. He parted ways with them and he went and partnered with Jeff actually, and worked there for about two years. So they had this thing going.

elijah Muhm: 4:37

When the time came that we decided that I was going to go and maybe try to open up something on my own at this point in time I'd been contemplating it for about three or four years. I'd been a sales rep for almost six and a half years, team lead, whatever and I was like, hey, man, it's time, you know, I want to go, try to, I want to go, try to do something, you know. So I had with Jeff he, you know, maybe, maybe we could do something together. And I'm like, hey, man, the days of me wanting to work for somebody, it's just that it's over with man. I don't really want to do that. And he's like, well, you should at least hear him out. And he's right, you should always hear somebody else out.

elijah Muhm: 5:25

So we went and sat down and we met with each other. It was like, I mean, it was like fate. He had everything we needed. He already had the licenses, he already had the mom and pop brand, he already had the local setup. He was lacking storm work and he was lacking sales reps. I had an abundance of those. And then I had a reputation already in this area where I was at to where I knew that I could have an impact on recruiting. I could potentially do some marketing. I had some good ideas. So we got together. It looked good on paper, Everything was a fit, and we jumped into this about two and a half years ago. So I've been with Romans for about two and a half years now.

Ty Cobb Backer: 6:01

OK, yeah, ok, amazing. Now that's a great story of years now. Okay, yeah, okay, amazing. No, that's a great story. You know who we, I've tried to pop open in in newer markets from from grassroot bootstrap from the ground up, without already having you know a name, name recognition and and all that stuff. So I I understand the difference from both, both sides of the spectrum, but with already having you know the, the name Romans in in the public's eye and and you know the small town you know, or I don't know how large town it is that you're in, but that that hometown feel, I guess, of of a locally grassroots company, what, what would you say, separates today you guys from a crowded market than any other roofing contractor in the area?

elijah Muhm: 6:51

So on a lot of our posts that we put up, we'll actually say it too, that you can get a roof anywhere. Anybody can get a roof. There are plenty of really good quality companies around me that could put the same roof, same style, same craftsmanship almost that we can. What's going to separate us from the rest of them is the experience that you're going to get. At Romans Roofing.

elijah Muhm: 7:09

That's how we gauge who we are is through our experiences that we deliver for our customers. It's why we have a good reputation. We take that very seriously. Our customers mean as much to us as our employees do, and as long as we keep the mindset that these two are the most important, romans will continue to thrive. So our focus is always the customer over communication, trying to go above and beyond any way we can. We do a lot of giveaways, roofs. We do a lot of things inside the community to let them know that we're part of it. And then I think one of the bigger power plays that we did recently was last year. We purchased our building across the street from the mayor's office in the town that we work in. So now it's no longer just we're not renting an office here and calling ourselves local. Like I, live in Northwest Indiana, most of my reps live in Northwest Indiana, and now our building we pay taxes on in the town we operate in, so we give back to Northwest Indiana.

Ty Cobb Backer: 8:01

I love that. I love that Good story, man. That is so good, that's so good. So, values and principles, what? What exactly you know? Values and principles have shaped how you lead Romans today.

elijah Muhm: 8:13

So number one is uh, I think culture over profits. That was something that we had to sit down with, uh, and it took all all of us. There's six owners in this, so it can get a little chaotic at times, but all six of us have the same end goal. And what was really cool when we sat down is we all realized that look man, this needs to be a destination spot for sales reps. This doesn't need to be a turn and burn company.

elijah Muhm: 8:35

I don't want to go with the industry standard of the two and a half year turnover rate per reps. I'm tired of that. I want to give them 401k. I want someone to retire with us. I want someone to build a future here and go buy their first home, go buy the dream car that they want.

elijah Muhm: 8:49

I want lives to change, and the only way that's going to do it is if we actually prioritize what's more important right now Is it profits or is it the growth of the company? And then, with the growth of the company, comes with helping people with their financials too, to helping to dive deep personally so that we can we can figure out what's bothering the sales reps on a psychological level, so that they could perform better at their jobs and learn the task. If you take on sales reps and you claim to care about them, then you need to show that, not in just in how you pay them, but in how you treat them, how the environment is around them and are you putting them in a position that they're able to succeed in. That's what's important.

Ty Cobb Backer: 9:27

Yeah, I love that, I love that we we call it. You know, having your dream big enough for everybody else's dream to fit in. So I, I totally understand, and I'm from that school of of of culture, having a good culture. You know a competitive spirit, you know culture, but also holding people accountable, but also being there for them when shit gets rough and not not so apt to, you know, uh, you know, fire somebody over a mistake, giving them enough room to make mistakes so they can learn from it, because unfortunately, that's the only way that I've learned is through a lot of mistakes, trial and error and ebbs and flows and things like that.

Ty Cobb Backer: 10:01

So we're very patient, not not, I'm not so keen on the.

Ty Cobb Backer: 10:06

You know I've heard people talk about, you know, hire slow, let go quickly, like I understand that to a certain extent, like definitely should, should hire people slower and and you know, but also give room because there's there's there's learning curves, right, like where some people have, you know, a learning disability, where they may not came from the roofing space necessarily, but they have the, the good qualities that actually fit like three quarters of the qualities that do fit the culture. But we just got to get them up to speed on like our crm, how to pull roofing aerial measurement tool, or the technique of like when they're at the door. Just just things that are teachable, that are skills that they can learn, but it might take them a little longer than some people and I really feel like that's what separates a good quality company that's in it for the long haul is building that family-like culture that we're all in this together. So I guess my next question for you would be is like how do you find and train quality people to represent your brand in the field?

elijah Muhm: 11:05

So finding people has been a lot easier as of lately. We do do a lot of Indeed, but at one point in time we had a fully staff squad here and, like you said, you know, due to a magnitude of reasons, you know you lose some people along the way. That's just the way business is. Even if you give them multiple opportunities, some people will grow so big financially or are in a position They'll have a hot few few months and you know how that goes. You know now they're ready to be an owner and they know everything about the industry, so you're going to lose people on the way. What we do is we do a lot of recruiting. We do a lot of videos. Our videos tend to draw attention locally because a lot of companies aren't doing what we're doing online. So we'll get people that will reach out to us. Word of mouth is everything. It's developing your reputation in the community, so people will apply here randomly throughout the year. We'll get a lot of those, and then I got a large sales team, so those guys will. You know, word of mouth gets out. People start seeing the success that they're having and then you have other people that want to go with us too at that point. But once you get them in here, that's really what matters, because anybody can learn how to sell, but we want them to do it the Romans way and we hold ourselves to a higher standard as far as education goes and training. So you're going to have to learn how to do things and then that's really when you get them in here. It's so crucial that first two weeks that they're in here, because you need them to see everything and you don't have much time to do it because you got to see how they're going to react to all of it. So what we're doing now is sending them out in the field with different people so they can see different aspects. Maybe it's an ITEL pool one day. Maybe it's an ITEL pool one day, Maybe it's an adjustment, Maybe you know a signing, Maybe it's just door knocking, whatever the case may be. But they need to see all the stuff that they're going to be doing and then working with them in the classroom equal amount of time too. So they understand that.

elijah Muhm: 12:55

To me, real sales reps, your performance it matters on the back end, not the front end. It's very easy to convince somebody that you can get the roof covered through the insurance company, somebody that you can get the roof covered through the insurance company. It's a lot harder to maintain them with 60 or 70 more clients. And make sure that your communication is being done thoroughly. Are you texting them appropriately? Are you making sure they're updated throughout the process? Are your notes clean? Your paperwork signed the correct way? Anything you do to halt the back end inevitably is going to stretch out this claim a lot longer for the homeowners. Or even if you're doing retail, if you're not communicating thoroughly, you're going to lose that job. So we really try to drive home how important the back end is as opposed to the front end. I'm going to teach how to sell, but that's not what makes a sales rep. What makes a sales rep is how happy that customer is when you're done with them.

Ty Cobb Backer: 13:40

Yeah, for sure, and that has a lot to do with how happy the sales rep is too, because that energy is radiant, it will radiate and homeowners can pick up on stuff. Whether it's incompet time. It actually starts with a the quality of the human being that you're bringing into your organization, right, and it really comes down to and that's what I mean by like culture, right, they they may not have came from the roofing space when we brought them in here, but they are a good, genuine human being. That is very teachable and very coachable, and we'll do anything for you. In turn, we'll do anything for the homeowner too, because at the end of the day, that's what we're doing.

Ty Cobb Backer: 14:28

We're serving homeowners Right, and, and the bonus is we're actually getting paid to serve people Right. So that's like the tip, like if I was a waiter and if I did a good job, I'll get a big tip at the end of the shift. You know what I mean. And that's kind of like our paycheck at the end of the week is like you know, we're getting paid to serve other people, and if you can get everybody like-mindedly in an organization, rowing in the same direction, with that same type of mentality at least from my experience, you're going to freaking crush it and and have not saying that every day's, you know, tiptoeing through the freaking tulips because, don't get me wrong, it is trudging the road to a happy fucking destiny. But having said all that, what would you say to this point? Now would have been, or what is your biggest challenge in scaling your business and how have you overcome it?

elijah Muhm: 15:21

So the biggest challenge was making sure that we were set for this, so it was creating a process, a rigorous process, and one that we still full disclosure are working on right now. I mean lot of owners it's really bad in the industry. They have a really warped way of thinking because they feel as though, if they're not at $20 million, they're not successful, and I think that if you just took a step back and just relax for a minute and look back like man, look how far I've come in these two years. You are growing and you may not even know you're growing, but you're holding yourself to such a high standard of growth that's unrealistic for most companies to even meet. You know, I sat down, I did a podcast with Tony Flattom over at Build Strong in Minnesota and Tony's awesome, awesome guy If you don't know him, I'm sure you do, though but Tony told me he said he broke it down in plateaus and he was like it's like seven million, 10 million, 12 million, 15, 20.

elijah Muhm: 16:19

He broke it down in plateaus and he was like it's like 7 million, 10 million, 12 million, 15, 20. I've been chasing 15 for the last five years. That's like my dream, and we're on pace to break that this year, but until we do. You know, that's like my dream and I was explaining to him how hard it is to get from 12 to 15. And he, he had a year that was he had 64 and a half million dollars in one year and he was explaining to me that his goal that year was like 20 or 25. And that just goes to show you really don't know where this is going to go. So it's important to hold on to your principles and then be thankful and also look back and give yourself kudos sometimes along the journey.

elijah Muhm: 16:57

But as far as the growth goes, you got to be ready to do it. So make sure that your processes are perfected, because if you're not perfect at 8 million, why in the hell would you even try to go for 16 million? That doesn't even make sense. We felt that 7.5 million, that we were primed. We're like, hey, man, we're going to do this. And last year we went and did 14.5 million. We felt really good about it. But now we're at another learning curve. So we hit that. We're on pace to exceed that. Not by much. We were originally on pace to exceed it by a lot more, but now it's like all right, what are we doing wrong? Like, where are we at? And I think the thing that we're starting to realize is that we're not doing anything wrong. It's just not going to go as fast as you want it to go. That's. That's where we're at with it.

Ty Cobb Backer: 17:45

Yeah, no, isn't that the God's honest truth? You know, if you think it's going to take a year, you might as well add another year to that, because it's going to take at least 24 months. You know, and you said a lot of good things there too, and my advice for somebody that is in growth mode, you know not to grow too fast, you know too quick, and I've gone through many different seasons where you know we, we, we kind of went stagnant, but fortunately what I've seen over the years is like you, you have like a year or two of growth. But I also suggest that like having a year of where you kind of I call it the correction year. Okay, because in growth mode all finances are are going back into the business, whether it's marketing, sales reps, training sales rep, all these things that cost money. So about every three or four years we've had like a correction year where we've stayed at revenue but we focus more on the net, on the bottom line, raising the bottom line at that same revenue we had did previously, the past 24 months. Then we build the foundation to grow another know grow another 10, 15, 20, 25%, and we've actually have grown 50% in a four year period of time, which, which you know there's there's a lot of things that break along the way. So you need to give yourself at least a 12 to 24 month of what I call correction or correction years. You know, fix what got broken, find the gaps, find the deficiencies and then from there then scale back up.

Ty Cobb Backer: 19:10

And if you can keep it strategic like that and just know that there's going to be whether whether it's organic or if it's intentional, there has to be a correction year in between those big bumps in revenue and growth and recruiting and training and SOPs, because the thing that I found out about SOPs is once you start down that rabbit hole of systems, operational procedures and things, then that creates even more. You have to literally have an SOP on how to design an SOP. I mean, it gets so granular and you can go so far down in that rabbit hole that it's never and just so. If anybody's listening, that is either starting out in business or wondering whether they're stagnant. You know, I'm saying this to you because it never changes. If it doesn't change then you're not growing. But it is very fluid. Your SOPs, your systems, your processes, your KPIs, that will always change. It's never set it and forget it and think you're going to grow from five to 15, from 15 to 25 million, without having change and things being broken along the way that are going to need to be repaired, fixed, replaced, whatever the case might be, it's always going to happen If you're, if you plan, and this is the thing.

Ty Cobb Backer: 20:24

It's not about the profits, like you talked about earlier.

Ty Cobb Backer: 20:27

It's not about chasing that growth, but it's about creating more opportunities of bringing people into your organization to give them a career, not just a stepping stone into a different career, or to go work for somebody else or even go work for themselves If they're happy enough and if they're getting by half of it's not even what they're making, it's the atmosphere in which they're working in is what keeps people around, like in the purpose, and giving them a purpose, a sense of purpose, and empowering them to solidify that purpose with you. Whether it's company, you know culture, community, involvement, you know doing food drives, food runs, raising money for the less fortunate, putting a new roof on somebody that couldn't afford a new roof, getting the whole entire company out there, who's never held a fricking tear off, shovel up on the roof, tearing Like that's what camaraderie, true fellowship and camaraderie and culture is built on a mission of impact, not just those of us within the organization, but in our local communities and people people are attracted to that shit, like it's given me effing goof bumps right now.

elijah Muhm: 21:37

It's real. It's real. So that's what we try to do is you? You hit it right on the head. We want our culture, our people and our community to be part of a broader picture so they can see that this is. We're in this together. When people feel like they're connected to your journey, they invest in it, they want to be part of it. They want to give you money, they want you to do their builds because they feel like they know you're chasing toward a greater, bigger goal and now they get to be a part of that goal no-transcript, absolutely.

Ty Cobb Backer: 22:22

It attracts so many good, positive momentum it's ridiculous. And then your network starts to grow. Other companies want to be a part of it too. So then, like you were mentioning, then they're feeding you leads and you're just attracting good people and doing quality work for quality people who are referring you to other quality leads and networks. And it's like our network has become our net worth literally just because of trying to do the next right thing, even when it hurts and even when it costs us money, and especially when nobody's watching and eventually somebody does watch.

Ty Cobb Backer: 23:05

Somebody is watching, you know, whether you know it or not, even when you think somebody isn't and you continuously do the next right thing suit up, show up, you know, and and just put forth your best effort, especially when you don't want to or you can't, and you don't have to give run it until that freaking gas tank is empty and somebody is going to pick you up along the way. And I, I'm, I'm living proof of that. I mean, over the years, man, I thought how are we going to get out of this? And there was that phone call, you know, or here was this person that showed up. It just seems like by continuously doing the next right thing for your fellow man, your community, your organization. Good and great things. Just just it. It just. I can't explain it. Even when I think it's the worst thing that's ever happened to me, usually turns out to be the best thing that's ever happened for me.

elijah Muhm: 23:55

Yeah, and share them to share the losses. That's that, and that's where you get the followers, and that's where you get the community behind you. The network is going to be there. You know you're a strong, good company, quality work. Your network is going to be there. As long as you don't you know shit on other contractors and stuff, they're going to support you. The thing is, though, is you need followers too. You need, you need the community to stand by you, and how they stand by you is by you owning your mistakes. You need to make them public and let them know. We are all human beings in this, but I'm doing the best experience possible, and if you can deliver on that, every single time you're good.

Ty Cobb Backer: 24:28

Yeah, no, I agree, man. I agree, you know, and and and, of course it takes. It takes a village, you know, it takes your team. You know eating, breathing and living the same passion that that you have, and and, like I said, it's contagious. It really is contagious where, down to the point, it's like I'll see you know a lot of our coworkers, you know, posting family photos and and and it wherever they are on vacations, and everybody, it seems like either has one of our hats on one of their, like they they're at the grocery store on the weekend shopping wearing one of our hats. Like they they're, they're bought in. It's almost caught Like I hate to use that word, but it's like.

Ty Cobb Backer: 25:05

It's almost like we've created such a culture around here that this is, like, this is our lifestyle. It's become a lifestyle. The TC backer brand is is a lifestyle that we just this is what we do, this is who we are. It's not even work anymore, because we're all not necessarily enjoying it every 12 hours of the day, but you know, it's where we have a purpose and we're purpose driven and it's impact the, the local communities that in, in which we, you know, we live in, and and it's just it's. It is a beautiful thing and, uh, you know some, and I'm glad we're talking about this because sometimes, I'll be honest with you, I forget the why behind what it is that we're doing, and I haven't had this good of a conversation with somebody about our why, our mission, our core values and why we suit up and show up every single day. So thank you for bringing this up about culture and the people and all that stuff, so you have to have a why too, so you have to have it.

Ty Cobb Backer: 26:02

Isn't that the truth? So anyhow, let's talk about the roof trolls. Actually, brian had a question. Somebody had a question in the comments over here. What is this here, what do you think leads to an individual's success, and what does this look like? So I think he's talking about sales reps.

elijah Muhm: 26:23

Oh, okay, first you'd have to define, in my opinion, what success is to you. So you'll find in this industry that not everybody is driven by money. So you know, if you have one of those situations someone such as myself when you're in sales, that you know the money isn't the end all be all, it's a little bit tougher of a conversation. So I'd say, start with finding out what success is to you, um, and then you literally, uh, as a sales rep, you, your success should be your, your five-star reviews, your referrals, not your signs. So you know you got 40 signs, but how many referrals came off those 40? You know how many good reviews came off those 40 that you did? How many conversations are you having every day? If you're chasing, you know numbers. Uh, I always tell reps don't chase doors, chase conversations, try to talk to people. That's what's going to equate to signs anyway. That's what our job is. The gift of gab. We're taught and trained to manipulate conversations to find out what's bothering people, so that we can gauge on that and work it from there. So that's your job. So you want to hone in on your craft, take the time to work on that and work it from there. So that's your job, you know.

elijah Muhm: 27:32

So you want to hone in on your craft. Take the time to to to work on that away from just the company. Don't rely on the company to educate you on where you need to be at. You need to take that further than the company, because the company can only teach you what it knows. But there's so many other companies out there doing so much more money than the company you work at. So you need to start picking brains from people company you work at. So you need to start picking brains from people. Attend events. Do that. Oh, I'm sorry, my whole screen just went black. You need to attend events. You need to make sure that you are focusing on your craft and honing in on your job to do the best that you possibly can. Success to me is defined by are you happy every day? Do you look forward to going to work and are you being paid correctly by doing the job that you're doing? And if you have all those three things lined in in place and you feel good about yourself, then you are successful.

Ty Cobb Backer: 28:14

Amen, amen, great, great response to his question. That was good. That was super good. So hopefully Brian got something out of that. Brian, if you got any other questions, man, please put them in the comments. Okay, so let's talk about the podcast. Okay, what made?

elijah Muhm: 28:31

you decide to start Roof Trolls. So Roof Trolls, I always wanted a podcast anyway. For about five years I wanted to have one anyway, just because they're fun. I listen to a lot of podcasts.

elijah Muhm: 28:41

And what happened was I talked to Deshaun Bryant about you know, I really wanted to get out and speak to people. And Deshaun said, you know, he told me the last time I had him out here, about a year and a half ago, he said hey, man, if you're going to do it, you need to go all in and just do it. And he said you know, I mentioned to him a few times about how I wanted to speak at events and I just didn't feel like I was ever going to be able to, because whatever excuses I came up with in my head at that time and the reality of it was that that's what it was, it was excuses, he told me. He said, bro, if nobody's watching you anyway, what do you care about what you post? Why do you care about that stuff? He's like just get out there and put your story out there, and if somebody can connect with it, they will, and if they don't, you know. But what are you losing anyway by not doing it? And he was absolutely right. So we got with our owners and like, hey, why don't we create a platform for ourselves and for other people that don't have the notoriety that they should, that are doing amazing things in the industry and let's have some fun with it? But then I was like but I want to twist to it. I want I did trolls because I wanted it to be open. I wanted people to you know if they had grievances to air out, feel comfortable to do it. Obviously, viewers love that. Also, I want to talk about stuff outside of roofing. It's not all just roofing, because no one cares in the public eye about roofing. You know what I'm saying. I've been doing roofing for 10 years and I still don't. Most of my conversations aren't roofing, you know. So I was like all right, let's appease to both parties.

elijah Muhm: 30:03

And what was really cool was when we first started it we had we had a strong network in the industry anyway, and people were really receptive to it. So then local people wanted to start being part of it. And then I just feel like it gets better as it goes along and all the hosts you know Angela will be on there with me, or Mike or Malice, and we've just been just learning how to chop it up and really read off, feed off each other and like we know what type of guests we're looking for and stuff. So we're just having a lot of fun on that podcast, man. So now it's just become about just having a good time and kind of like when we have our guests on there, we get them to drop their guards a little bit and open up to who they really are. Like Deshaun was freestyling on there, we've opened Pokemon on there. It's just it's the roof trolls, man. It's just about having a good time and and and bringing fun back into the roofing industry. I love it. I love it, man.

elijah Muhm: 30:56

What has been your favorite part of it? Uh, I mean, it's going to be. It's going to sound cliche, but truthfully it's. It's learning about people. It really is. Uh, because we've been, we have been blown away by some people. So, gosh, I don't even know where to begin.

elijah Muhm: 31:08

You know we went to Minnesota and Reed Asher is the sales manager for BuildStrong. Never even knew the guy, never had a conversation with him, and this is a day. By the way, we shot it at Tim Brown's office in Hook and we shot it with big people Tiffany and Dan Walrack, tony Flatham, ty Adams. We had Aaron Bethke. We had a whole bunch of people on there and I was blown away by Reed. I never connected with somebody on that level before and saw somebody who was that compassionate about what they're doing, so that was one that really stuck out. And then we just had Selah Brooks is a local entrepreneur, reached out to me and I brought him on for marketing and that guy's a genius. Just simply put, give him five years and watch what happens with him Like just a genius and just hearing other people's stories and entrepreneurship.

elijah Muhm: 32:00

And John Scenic is another one. I didn't know much about John. I love John, by the way, but I didn't know much about him. Dude, that guy is hilarious and he has such a cool like side of him that that unfortunately and I hope he opens up even more to the camera that people don't get to see with him. And I really enjoyed our conversation. I mean we went two and a half hours on that podcast. I really enjoyed my time with him.

elijah Muhm: 32:23

Uh and's so many amazing people, like Goldstein, who I know you guys know really well. He's another one man. I just I hope that he turns that camera on and really puts his face out there, because that guy is so caring and genuinely is about helping people. Reggie Brock's, another one, jay Bradley, like there's some. The roofing industry is such a beautiful community beautiful community and as we start getting guests on the podcast now, it's just like man, you realize how, how cool everybody really is and how many good hearted people there are. Like the roofing industry is in good hands right now. That's why it's so important to talk to the youth and try to move them up and get them to understand it, because there are so many good souls right now. We need to keep that momentum going.

Ty Cobb Backer: 33:02

Yeah, no, I love that and I would say that's probably one of my favorite things too is the how we were able to connect with people that you know we probably wouldn't have met any other way outside of the podcast and we've I've made personally like good, like true friendships Eric, oh, mike, mike Goldenstein, I mean the the the Sean Bryant was one of our very first guests five and a half years ago when we started this and he opened up so much and and still to this day is one of my favorite episodes and I love it every time he comes on and I got to see some sides of him too that, like you said, that most people don't get to see. You know, be outside, you know beside outside the camera, Um, and and the personal connections that we've made and the things that I've learned from people to like I, we don't have to pay for their services, we just bring them on the podcast and start asking them questions and my team's writing notes down. No, I'm just kidding, but I mean, you could?

elijah Muhm: 34:00

no, you could. I'm all for that. I believe that the roofing industry should be stealing content from each other. We should be bouncing ideas off of each other, because that's how they get better, that's how we all get better is by working together to do this. I'm OK with that. If somebody I tell people when I speak, if you want to go on my social media and take my ideas and spin them off on your own, I'll send you the videos. I'll send them to you.

elijah Muhm: 34:20

I'll send you the script that I made when I wrote the video. I don't care, it's only going to make us all better. You, stepping your game up to get to my level means that I got to step mine up to stay above you. So let's do it, man. Let's work together to get better.

Ty Cobb Backer: 34:31

I a hundred percent agree with that. I mean, it is that's why we're doing this. I'm hoping somebody gets something from this that they can apply to their personal life or their professional life, like that's. That's the whole point of this, not just to listen to myself. And and this is the thing too, it's held me accountable too, cause I'm not going to say something on this when I know, if not all of my team, at least half of my team is either watching right this second or they're going to catch it on a replay. So I can't look like a fraud or a phony either. I'm not saying sometimes they're not rolling their eyes at me like Jesus Christ, I'm so tired of hearing him say that. But you know, this is where, you know, we get to. You know, educate people. This is where we get to reach other people. This is where we get to bring people in our space, on our stage, so they can get their message out to the public, to, you know, to our industry.

Ty Cobb Backer: 35:21

And honestly, you know we started the podcast to promote a charitable event, like, literally, we didn't know any other way to market what we wanted to do for our community. So it was like screw it. We had an iPhone eight but we went live back then. You could host what was called a watch party and I mean it would spread like wildfire, like we'd have 5,000 people watching it at one time. Nowadays you got to pay to get that shit, but I mean it was crazy and it was like you know what? Like after that home show, we did it at a home show, a local home show here.

Ty Cobb Backer: 35:53

After the home show, we're like are we like what are we going to do? Like this has been like our. It was tuesday nights back then. Like I've carved out my my tuesday nights for four months. So it's kind of like what are we gonna do? Is going to do? It was like screw it, let's, let's keep doing it. And we were trying to promote TC backer. We were going through like window month siding month, all these things, and we were running out of content. And that's when, I think, the Sean reached out to us and was like hey, man, can I come on your podcast? We love what you're doing.

Ty Cobb Backer: 36:21

And we were like and we were like shit, somebody wants to come on our podcast and I try not to act super excited, but I mean I was thrilled to death and it was so much easier having a guest on and listening to their experiences, their strength, their hope and how they got through something, and it just made for really good content for people to grab valuable information from and then can apply it to their businesses or their personal life. And we keep it real too. This is things like we. We talk about our, our failures, like I have failed so many fricking times to do that. I can't.

Ty Cobb Backer: 36:56

I've I've lost my mind over it, but fortunately there's been enough successes in there and wins to outweigh the failures. And I'm not afraid because I hate getting wrapped up in the hype of the glam shots Like you know the million dollar deal that I closed, well, you didn't talk about. You know how much you lost on that job, right, because you you missed, or the insurance company didn't give you any supplements or whatever the case might be, because if that's not happening to you, you're lying. You've lost money, thank you, thank you.

elijah Muhm: 37:28

I want the roofing industry to at least take this from the stop telling people that it's easy when they go through you. Stop doing it. We have people locally that are like, oh, they said they couldn't do State Farm. Well, we do State Farm. No, you don't. No, you don't. It's across the board. That's why there's lawsuits and everything else going on right now. No, you don't.

elijah Muhm: 37:46

We need to be real and just be honest with people too. Also, it deflates our industry when you do that. If you get on there and you constantly tell people how easy it is, then why in the hell would they use you? They won't anymore guys. They're not going to. You need to be real with homeowners and tell them hey, our business owners, when we do this, it when we do this. It's a daunting task. It involves an expert, which is what I am, and I'm going to help you aid your claim along to get it done the right way. But you need to be patient with me and this is a process. Stop telling people. Stop downplaying what you do, because when you downplay that, it downplays the whole credibility of the industry across the board and it's just. It's so bad for us, man. Start being real about it.

Ty Cobb Backer: 38:30

I agree with you. I'd be honest yeah, no doubt, no doubt. It's just so much simpler that way too, you know, and I don't mind being an open book, you know, anybody can ask me at any time. I mean, I've coached local people in in, in our space, in our industry, you know to, and help them and mentor them Shit.

Ty Cobb Backer: 38:38

There was a guy that worked for us that called me up and left us and went and started his own business and he had some questions. I didn't mind, you know, answering his questions about Google. He had Google questions Like how do I, you know, start a website? How do I get this? I, I didn't care. I've ran into people that aren't so local and have helped them out, like they're, they're a town or two over that actually watched the podcast, and I have no problem when they reach out and ask me how I got through something or if I had any experience with something. I don't have any issues or qualms about answering any question or being, you know, totally upfront or vulnerable with anybody. So, yeah, I love that topic. That's great.

Ty Cobb Backer: 39:21

I think more people need to stop BS and homeowners, the industry themselves that's great. I think more people need to stop BS and homeowners, the industry themselves mostly it's probably themselves or bullshitting themselves in this on on real reality that they live in and they are telling everybody that this shit's easy, because it's not easy. There's ebbs and flows. The longer you end the game, the harder it gets. More money, more problems, man, there is no doubt about that and more headaches. More people get involved, and you know, keeping that culture strong, the larger you get, is probably one of the most difficult things. And making sure that that message is still getting and reaching homeowners, the larger we get, and that it's not getting watered down.

elijah Muhm: 39:58

Yeah, it gets more complicated. You hit it on the head, though. It gets more complicated. There's a reason that you see new people come in this industry that do so well that first year because they don't know anything, guys. They don't know how to have that back-end conversation or how to put their foot in their mouth and talk about things that the homeowner doesn't care about. All they know is get on the roof, get the job done and get out of here. That's why they're so efficient, and somewhere along the way, we've lost that too, 10 years into this and we want to talk to everybody about what could happen in three years for them. Well, you know, just so you know. This is coming. Who cares about that, dude? Why don't we try to go back to enjoying what we're doing and having fun and let's take the stress and put it off to the side? We know stress is going to be there. Life is going to life, no matter what happens. But what do you do in the meantime? That's that's what's important.

Ty Cobb Backer: 40:42

Amen to that brother. It's important. Amen to that brother, amen, cool, all right, so the podcast. Back to the podcast. I love our conversation, by the way.

elijah Muhm: 40:52

Well, how has the podcast impacted Romans, so we're starting to see that now. Originally and this is where we just had a recent like epiphany One of our one of our owners did bring up like we need to, we need to try to get basically like an ROI. How do you do? How do you turn an ROI?

Ty Cobb Backer: 41:08

off of a podcast.

elijah Muhm: 41:09

It's very hard. So what not? What we're doing now is we're getting out locally. We shot a couple of them in a local bar right down the street from here. I got a UFC gym that wants us to come and shoot one. We got a guy who's doing like a basketball league that's going to be on our podcast here, and got a guy who's doing like a basketball league that's going to be on our podcast here, and I've had just a ton of different entrepreneurs that are local here. So we're trying to branch out locally now, but what we're seeing, though, is the reputation off of it, the roofing industry for one.

elijah Muhm: 41:38

I've been to a couple of events since we started this, and I've been stopped a few times and was like hey man, you know, I really like your podcast, really funny. Yesterday I was just telling my owners this I was at the gas station with my daughter and I was standing there and a guy walked up from a landscaping company and I was like hey man, I I watch your clips like on on you, uh, on YouTube, and I'm like oh, that's crazy. And he and I don't even have I have like 110 followers on YouTube, not even a lot and he's like, he's like yeah, he's like when I'm in my break I just scroll through and he's like I see it a lot. He's like I follow you guys and everything. I'm like man, that's great, like I just really cool that that happened. But it's starting to. We're starting to get get a reputation for it. I get probably two or three emails a week now of people that are like want to be on it. A lot of them are out of town so they don't understand that.

elijah Muhm: 42:23

I don't do virtual right now, but just the fact that we're starting to gain a reputation. I get a lot of followers that we've been recently. People scroll through and watch the videos and stuff and right now it's the beginning stages. Man, it's only been 11 months for us. So we're just going to try to keep consistently putting out episodes every Monday and really just driving home the podcast, promoting it, putting the episodes out there, making them easily accessible, and then we don't really turn down guests. You know, unless you're, unless you really just aren't it. You know, and there's a couple of people that just aren't it for the camera. Outside of that, I mean, it's all guns blazing man. We'd love to have anybody who wants to be on it be on it.

Ty Cobb Backer: 43:03

Right on, man. No, I love that. I love that it has, you know and I asked you that question because it has done a lot for our roofing company as well over the years but like it didn't, it didn't take off right away, you know what I mean. The longer it seemed like that, we did it and we, we too, still don't have a lot of followers on YouTube, but that doesn't mean it's not reaching a lot of people. And unfortunately, you know, to get a million followers that means, technically, probably 2 million people have watched, you know, at some point in time, one of their video clips, because most people just don't subscribe, so you never know who's watching.

Ty Cobb Backer: 43:39

That's the thing I think I've learned the most, because I too have ran into people like at the supermarket, the grocery store or just out and about running errands, and they'll approach me and they're like man, I really like what you said the other night and this goes back to. I do a challenge every now and then. It's called the fearless 44. And these people aren't even friends of mine on social media. They don't even follow me on social media, but somehow my little two minute video showed up on their algorithm and they listened to what I had to say, and it's like you never know the impact or who needed to hear that or who's watching it, and it's amazing to me the the amount of people that that are watching that we think aren't watching.

elijah Muhm: 44:24

Oh yeah, yeah, I have a lot of friends that will. That will say something to me about it and be like, oh yeah, they're like that one guy you guys had on the episode. I'm like, oh oh, somebody listens. Okay, somebody's listening. All right, it sounds good. And we'll get a comment every once in a while where another roofer will say something and we'll look them up and there'll be in Montana or there'll be somebody off in California or something doing solar and they're watching the roof trolls. I'm like man, this is so cool. I love stuff like that. I think it's awesome, even when people come on and they and they talk shit. I enjoy that too. Like I'm a big fan of that as well, because that means that my video at least popped up in your network, so like you saw it. So that's great yeah.

Ty Cobb Backer: 45:00

I love that For sure, and you will have them. Unfortunately, the longer you do this, the more people will talk shit. I mean little, do people know? I always say be careful on who you talk shit on or piss off, because they may just end up building an empire off of that fuel by you talking shit on them. You know, and that's true story, man, that's real shit right there. So be careful on who you piss off. Cool. So what would you say is one of the biggest mistakes that roofing companies still get wrong today?

elijah Muhm: 45:36

Competing against each other. I would say that's probably number one. Besides training, training sucks. The training has sucked in the roofing industry since I've been in it. I can only imagine, due to the training that I received when I got into it, that it sucked before I got into it. And if I can leave my mark at all in the roofing industry, I hope to gain a reputation that my training didn't suck when I got out of it. I don't know. I mean, it still sucks now, even my training. So I hope that we can increase that, because that's really bad. But outside of that, it's competing against each other. Man, we really need to honestly hone in on working together.

elijah Muhm: 46:09

We all have the same common enemies. We all get upset when out-of-town roofers come into our areas and they do bad, bad, shitty work and they leave the homeowners unhappy or take advantage of them. We all battle with the insurance companies. So why are we stepping on each other's throats? That's the part I don't understand. Why can't we ever just get four or five of us locally that have good reputations sit down once a month with each other, maybe even brand a couple videos together and say, hey, we stand united on the front here in Northwest Indiana. We're not going to let out of town competitors come in here, or not even competitors out of town Bad companies come in here and take advantage of our homeowners. If you guys are looking for quality work, use the four or five of us. We stand by. You know we're residents here. We make a commitment to the community.

elijah Muhm: 46:52

Then you brand those videos together and then the catch to it is when you knock on a door and they're being used by somebody. You can't bash them. You got to say, hey, that's a great company to use. I'm glad you're being taken care of. Is there anybody else in your network that could benefit from my services? That's the approach that we take, and in doing that, you all will watch your revenue go massively higher than what it has been, because you're putting a stranglehold on your market, which means that you're literally eliminating all your competitors, and even though the company that you were competing against competing does $20 million.

elijah Muhm: 47:22

If they go to 25 million, but you go from 10 to 15, then did you lose in that situation? No, so who cares? If they get better, that's great. Why don't you pick their brain over the course of the next two years, while you guys are partners and find out what's working for them in the industry that you work in, in your market. Why are they at the success level that they are and you're not? Why don't you work together and team up to do that?

elijah Muhm: 47:43

I'm not saying share bread you guys can still compete against each other the right way, but that's the thing. Do it the right way. But once you can take the market and limit it to three or four companies, and you guys do, and you brand together and you contribute to the community together. Instead of one roof giveaway, you're doing four roof giveaways. Instead of one booth at a fair, you got four of them at the fair and you're giving away a ton of free stuff to the people. Like that's what we need to be doing. We need to start thinking of each other as allies, as opposed to opponents, and once that happens, the customers are going to have the best experience possible, because we're working together to clean the image of door to door sales. Because right now we're getting compared to used car salesmen and it's a direct result of the way that we act and the actions that we do on a day in and day out basis Stepping on throats, mentioning other companies in meetings, honor rewarding. There's a company locally here Reward sales reps from flipping contracts. A company locally here reward sales reps from flipping contracts.

elijah Muhm: 48:39

That's the most insane thing I've ever heard in my life, because all you're doing is reiterating to that homeowner what a piece of shit you are. That's literally all you did. They already thought you were a scumbag, and now they know for sure that all you cared about was that commission. That's all you had on your mind. If you want the homeowner to be helped, then you should want them to be helped. It's not their fault that they made it to the door before you did. If you cared, you'd have been out at seven o'clock in the morning banging doors down, so you could assure that that went to you instead of them. So be so. Be mindful of that, and the only competition we really have is ourselves. It's cliche, but it's the truth. Look in the mirror. That's who you compete against. As long as you keep that mindset, you'll be fine.

Ty Cobb Backer: 49:14

Yeah, no, I agree, I a hundred percent agree that you know and you'll even see other companies talk shit about other companies on social. You know, like, like on a real like, they'll be up on a roof nitpicking somebody else's work, and this is the way that I see it. I've been in the industry long enough to know that there's good days, bad days, and you never know what that individual was going through the day that they may have like flashed that chimney, that his wife could have left him, His children could have died, like, whatever the case might be. So anytime that we go out on an inspection and all of our team knows this like we are not going to get off that roof and get down there and be like who the hell did you have do your roof? Because he was an idiot. You know, first and foremost, you nailed it you look like the idiot by bashing somebody else.

Ty Cobb Backer: 49:53

Nobody actually wants to do work with a snake. So you're coming in here, you're going to talk trash. Nobody wants to be a part of like that conflict or that confrontation. Do you know what I mean? Honestly, at the end of the day, they want to go with an ethical person that'll come down and I've been put on the spot already with homeowners where it's like they're drilling me, Like did they do it right or did they not do it right? And it's kind of like you know, there's multiple ways of doing this thing, so I can't necessarily say that they did it wrong, but it's not necessarily the way that I think I would do it Right.

Ty Cobb Backer: 50:22

There's a way to speak to a homeowner about other contractors work or how they operate, you know, because your actions speak louder than words. So if I'm sitting here just running my mouth right now, none of that really matters. It's my performance and I kind of talked about this a little bit last night. It's kind of like, you know, by me saying I'm going to lose weight doesn't mean I'm going to lose weight. I have to put the action in right. I have to go to the gym, I have to lift the dumbbells up. The dumbbells will not lift up for me, the book will not open up and read itself for me. I have to read the book If I want to be educated. It's no different than I can say I'm the greatest, I'm the cheapest, I'm whatever out there, but if I'm not cashing that, check that my ass just wrote words are shallow or hollow and they're falling on deaf ears.

elijah Muhm: 51:14

I agree, I agree a hundred percent. And and also with the shot he worked to, you know, you don't know what the homeowner said you know, I've been out there a million times and a homeowner is like, hey, I can't afford that way.

elijah Muhm: 51:23

Is there anything else you can do? And then you know you, you provide them with something. You tell them hey, I don't recommend you do this, but this is how you can save a couple hundred bucks and it'll stop the league. You're going to have to come back and do this later. And they go okay, that's, that fits my budget. And then the next guy comes and he's like, oh, look at that, they should have never done this. I don't know why they did this. You know, you don't know. Like you said, you don't know what they were going through, what was set up or anything like that. Plus, it's not really your business to do that. Anyway, that's not what you're out there for now. Ask, because we need to stop that in our industry. But, uh, the repairs thing, yeah, I agree with you and we.

elijah Muhm: 51:57

We see it all the time people getting ripped up, uh, with no defense to themselves, like that's why I try to stay out of those forums too. In facebook, I'll occasionally go in there and I'll ask about a crm or I'll ask something like that. But what with the whole? Is this hail damage or how? How much do we pay your reps? And all that stuff. All it does is infuriate me when I read the comments coming in because it's so, so wrong and it's the same thing even out here.

elijah Muhm: 52:21

Someone will put up a post and they'll say does anybody have an opinion of Roman's roofing? They came by my house and I'm thinking about using them. All it is is a bunch of comments about oh, don't use them, use us, use this company, or they'll start putting their business on. They're like bro, that's not what they asked. They asked if anybody had an experience with us. You know our 4.9 Google rating. Did anybody have an experience? You know that's what they're asking not to use you, you know, but a lot of companies, that's all they care about. It's commission, commission, commission and eventually you're going to get exposed. You really are Like eventually someone's going to stop and be like dude. Isn't it weird that every post that guy attacks the companies? Like isn't it weird that he's sitting with a 3.9 Google rating but he's telling you about how shoddy everybody else's work is? Like eventually, that catches up to you guys. Like it just does.

Ty Cobb Backer: 53:07

Isn't that the truth? No shit, no. Good stuff, good stuff. Okay, so we're cut. We're getting down to our one hour mark here. So what what's? I got a couple more questions for you, so what's? What's next for you? Any big projects coming up at Romans Roofing, or your next big moves with the Roof Trolls?

elijah Muhm: 53:26

So so, both Okay. So so, coming up for Romans Roofing is the possibility of expansion to Michigan. We've been pretty open about that. I don't know that it's going to happen right away, but we're within the next calendar year it is happening. Uh, we will expand to the michigan area because we're we're in a blessed part of the market. So, northwest indiana I'm only a half hour outside of chicagoland and I'm a half hour 45 minutes away from michigan. So, uh, I have. I have the aurora illinois office now that we all have together, and then the hobert indiana office, so then we're going to hopefully branch out to Michigan, which will put us across the Midwest.

elijah Muhm: 54:00

The big moves for the Roof Trolls is that we are hoping to eventually have a mascot, and then my goal is to start attending events. I'd like to. I'd like to set up a booth, like Eric does, like you guys do. I'd like to be at IRE. I'd like to be at Door-to-Door Con. I'd like to be at some of these other bigger events going on Roof Con or whatever, so I could sit down with some guests that I don't have access to all the time.

elijah Muhm: 54:28

Becca Switzer is one of the ones I'd really love to have on here. Eric I would love to have on here. I think me and him would mesh really well together actually. But yeah, I would like to get a lot of people on here and I think that setting up in an event would be very, very big. And then for myself, it's just continuing to grow. Continuing to speak, I'm very, very thankful for the opportunity Jay Bradley put in front of me to be able to help out with Roof Camp and him and Reggie Brock doing amazing things, and then Deshaun to take his time out to help me work on my speeching and stuff like that, and that's something he's doing free of charge. Guys off on the side uh, deshaun is just man about as real as they get in this industry.

Ty Cobb Backer: 55:07

Uh, so great heart on that guy yeah, no, I agree, I agree, man, that that yeah good, good stuff, man, a mascot, okay, I'm I'm excited to see what that's going to be.

elijah Muhm: 55:17

Yeah, jeff's idea actually, but I like it.

Ty Cobb Backer: 55:19

Cool, cool. No, that's good. That's good stuff, man. And and you know, good luck on, uh, you know I, I wish you well on the expansion and stuff. I know that stuff's not easy. You know hours, you know and and making sure you have the right team around you to to perform at that high level and that way the standards don't get lowered. You know, the bigger you get. That's probably my biggest, our biggest struggle moving forward. So if there's anything we can do to help you, you know what like in terms of like, what's the easiest way that somebody could follow you, connect with you or learn more about you know what it is that you're doing. What would you say?

elijah Muhm: 56:08

You could follow Roman's roofings page. It's very fun. We try to create fun content, educational content. You can also add me on Facebook. I'll be glad to add somebody. Pick through the videos and stuff Again. I've only been posting now on social media for about a year straight, so I'm still getting my feet wet too. You could also find the Roof Trolls on Facebook or Instagram. On the Instagram page for the Roof Trolls, that's with a Z at the end of it. We just do a lot of clips. That's all it is on Instagram. Facebook is more like a little bit more in depth, but a lot of clips too. And then you could follow us anywhere podcasts are played we also. You can watch our episodes on YouTube as well.

Ty Cobb Backer: 56:48

Awesome Good stuff, and Vic will go ahead and post a link or two in the comments. So if anybody that's watching or catch us on the replay, make sure you check out the comments to catch his links. Is there any final piece of?

elijah Muhm: 57:04

advice you'd give to a roofer just starting out Don't forget to have fun, man. Get out there, put your story out there, make sure that you take marketing very seriously. And then the best advice for a new roofing company or for someone getting into this understand that you are your own entity too outside of your company. So there is a difference between marketing and branding. Marketing is what you tell people you are. Branding is what they say when you're not around. You are your brand. Whatever people say about you, that's who you are, and it's up to you to clean that image or to continue to make it as strong as what it is, Whatever way you sway on it, right now you are and it's up to you to clean that image or to continue to make it as strong as what it is, whatever. Whatever way you sway on it right now, you can save it or you can continue to go down the road where it's at right now, but inevitably, that's on you 100% to do that.

Ty Cobb Backer: 57:48

Amen, amen, way to way to way to complete that. Yeah, always, continuously work on yourself, and I agree with the marketing and the brand piece of that. So thank you for that advice. And if I agree with the marketing and the brand piece of that, so thank you for that advice. And if anybody wants to learn more or find out, you know, or have any questions, please check us out at wwwbeyondthetoolbeltcom or tcbackercom any of those or my personal page. And, elijah, thank you so much for coming on the show. We appreciate you carving out time. I know you're a busy dude and if there's anything that we can do to give you a hand, you have any questions, please feel free to reach out to us.

elijah Muhm: 58:27

Right on, man. I appreciate it and thank you guys for having me. I've been watching it for a while and I'm so pumped to have been on it, so thank you.

Ty Cobb Backer: 58:34

Thank you so much. Till next week, we'll see you. Guys, and take care of yourself and stay dry or stay cool, wherever you're at in the world. We'll see you next week.